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Post by soulofhachi on Aug 5, 2008 8:16:14 GMT -5
Isn't it the artifacts that have multiple powers? The Star Rod has done so much. It created barriers, attempted possession, acted as a weapon of destruction, or practically anything because it grants wishes.
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Aug 5, 2008 8:30:31 GMT -5
And how many are like the Star Rod? It's an oddity among Artifacts. It's like comparing a tank to an UWM.
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Post by soulofhachi on Aug 5, 2008 9:00:22 GMT -5
Canon, there are a few that match the Star Rod, but many artifacts have been made to equal the Rod.
The Shadow Rod, Ztar Rod and the Ztars from the last war are a few of the artifacts that are on the same level. There are no limit at all on made up artifacts.
Also, the Beanstar and the Chaos Heart are also roughly equal, with the Chaos Heart as more of an invincibility weapon.
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Water Dumple
SMKW God of the Wars
Expert Debater
Whatever do you mean, Commander Pierce?! Anglo military intelligence is second to none! Fire!
Posts: 4,123
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Post by Water Dumple on Aug 5, 2008 9:29:29 GMT -5
But it's still one thing. One trick pony, and it's why they are so powerful. WM's have multiple powers, or at least multiple uses. As well, one Artifact > one WM focus, because there is only one of that Artifact, while most WM's have multiples. It's easier to write. You yourself talk about how you wanted to make writers jobs easier by cutting things in fourth, yet you can't tell how much easier it is to make a paragraph about one really unique thing compared to one of a group? What? There's no limit on artifacts. Therefore, one isn't restricted to making one of that artifact. So let's say I've gotten the map and done all that, so I can get artifacts in 20 days or thereabouts; I want an artifact that wipes out 10% of enemy troops' strength. That's not a whole lot; it'll make a difference, and it'll be noticeable, but it won't turn the course of a battle. So...what if I get another one? Then, they're down by another 10% of their power, so their total power is 81%. Why not make another? Suddenly they're fighting with a fourth of their power down at 73%. Again? 66%. Again? 60%. If I ran all of my projects on getting those artifacts, in 20 internal days I could reduce enemy troop strength to 60%. Fair? lol not rly. On the other hand, when you consider 20 tanks, no matter how long it took to get them, folks automatically consider them to be lower in quality because they're greater in number. I'm testing something out in The Wars and making machines all over the scale; I have 20-day Artillery, 50-day Md. Tanks, 60-day Fighters, 80-day Battleships, and so on. I want to see what the results are in terms of how they do in battle. I'm also sort of trying to make a few more higher-caliber machines rather than just make a bunch of 25-day Tanks. Unfortunately, I've only read interesting war machine accounts in tech-on-tech battles and so on, or at the beginning of a version when there are only a few machines and therefore they stand out more. All it takes is a single clause in a sentence to recognize a type of them; "The Battleship fired heavy explosives from a long distance away, putting the enemy Frigates in danger, while the Submarines moved in discharging torpedoes at the cornered ships." And although I'm not always stimulated by battles, I know others are. 10 external days for a hero. That's 40 internal days. So it's either 40 days or 100 for it. People seem to give them the strength of the 100-day project (Or perhaps a 200-day one) and yet most members appear to get them via 40-day quests. Additionally, heroes broke up the monotony for a while, I'll agree, and yet now it's hero-does-this, hero-does-that, etc. You'll notice that folks credit the first version for it's troops/machines-on-troops battles. The militaristic kind. However, these later versions with all the focus on heroes aren't looked on so kindly. I put next to no focus on my champions/hero, and don't always even send them into battle to get more focus on what I really put effort into, my militaristic upgrades and tech. Unfortunately, I can't go to battle very often because other people have the magic > tech unbalance, or overpowered heroes that will render them worthless. It's unbalanced. And how am I forcing my opinion on people? I am no moderator; I cannot change the rules, except by influencing others to accept my viewpoint as well, and that's entirely their choice. If you don't like it, that's a real shame, but I'm certainly not "Forcing" my opinion on you. If you want to argue with it, give my opinion all the hell you want, but I'm still not "Forcing" my opinion on you. As I said before, I cannot change the rules, I can only try to get them changed. Then some of that randomization needs to be removed, because it's prevented me from making attacks unless I have an ally to back me up for three entire versions of the game (Four if you count crappy version two). Also, these flaws affect casualties, not just the way battles are written. And I know others would like to see more focus on tech and those kinds of projects rather than just heroes; I'm pretty sure Yoshimaster does, and some other people mentioned it as well.
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Aug 5, 2008 10:00:29 GMT -5
Why do you care? You aren't part of these wars anymore, and you said you were lacking creativity in them, not a rules problem.
There is a limit on Artifacts. Maybe not mechanically, but have you ever seen more than one of any type of Artifact, minus the Star Rod, which in and of itself is almost the only thing in Mario capable of doing what it does. I haven't, and I deal with Artifacts far more so than you.
You aren't going to get Artifacts like those. No one deals in mechanical terms like those, and no one should. That is infinitely overpowered. Effectively that may happen, but that depends on a number of things. Who is the Artifact being used against, where they are, what is going on, things like that. Most WM's have a use, no matter where they are. I, however, wouldn't use the Thunder Pure Heart while engaging in underwater combat. WM's are also long-lasting. Whatever an Artifact does, it does it once, minus the Star Rod. And you keep ignoring the writers whim, which is what this is all about.
Which means they need to have longer quests for them, or at least more detailed. Part of the reason why Quests are allowed to skirt days is because they are supposed to be detailed, and involve actual effort on the writers part. You keep looking at things from an almost purely mechanical and tactical way. These wars are more than that, and capable of appealing to more people because of that. And where do you see magic > tech? Artifacts can be tech-based, as all Artifacts are is a one-shot deal that does a lot, so it would be like a big laser beam for tech, to simplify it. I have a group of tech Artifacts planned, and I also have planned a magic WM, so your problem is Artifacts > WM, not magic > tech. And yet more problems with the writer. If you have an issue with how people view things, find a writer that shares your views. soul does, most likely. That is your issue, time and time again. Not the game itself, how people view it, and interpret it. Deal with the people, not the system.
It shouldn't. You either find a writer that agrees with you, or you bring it up with a more important person, or a group of people, who feel it was unfair. And rarely do solo attacks ever work, not just yours, mainly because the enemy usually has allies as well.
As well, I'd like to see a balance. Eliminating Bandits won't fix the imbalance you receive. Some people have different ideas of fun, and instead of eliminating, you change.
Also, if you have enough time to post all this, and continue arguing, you have enough time for SMKW.
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Post by vidguysteve on Aug 5, 2008 10:33:31 GMT -5
I agree with everything Merloo is saying. >_< >_< . . . >_o <_< >_> Wow! The world didn't explode!
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Aug 5, 2008 10:36:53 GMT -5
Of course it wouldn't. We have been on the same side. Now, if you are after Wizeman, I'll be impressed. It's not particularly overpowered, but confusing.
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Post by vidguysteve on Aug 5, 2008 10:52:12 GMT -5
WD, first off, let me say this: many of your points make sense and are perfectly rational.
That said, I can say that unfortunately, there are several elements and factors that simply cannot be cut from the game. Not because people want them there or because they're SMKW staples, but because it's simply human nature.
Each of us are unique and think in our own way. We approach problems differently, have different ideas, react differently to situations, etc. Because of this, we all approach modding battles uniquely as well. Myself, I absolutely love writing Hero on Hero battles; they're simple, there's not alot of digging through info, and most importantly I just have a knack for writing them. Because of that, when I mod a battle, you can bet dollars to donuts that there's going to be a Hero on Hero battle if I can help it.
My point is: this issue on how battles are written, how the strength of War Machines and Artifacts is perceived, how powerful Heroes are, and the randomization factor of battles are all dependent on the Mod. Not the system, not the Rules, not the game; the person typing the battle. He can be unbiased towards each side, but he can make whatever he wants to happen as long as it's within reason.
Now that you have this in mind, you need to look at all the different battles from the Wars and see who wrote what; which battle did you appreciate the most? Which seemed the most fair? Most ______-centric? Chances are that it's because that particular Mod naturally focuses on what you look for in a battle. Now, the next time you want to fight, send him a PM and ask him to mod it. I learned a while ago that there's a slight out-of-game element to the game; it's not just about writing great plans or choosing the perfect target, because the person who interprets the strategy is just as important as the strategy itself.
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Aug 5, 2008 11:01:31 GMT -5
Which is why I like vidguy's style. It fits me more. It also happens to be more mine, except that I also have a tendency to put in more backstory if I can find a way to work it in. You need to find a person that fits your idea, as a person that is 100% without bias of any kind is not human. Human beings have natural likes and dislikes, which is why this doesn't always work out the way you want it to. I think it works better, as no two battles will ever be the same depending on the writer, but you want things to be mathematically exact.
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Makajawan
SMKW God of the Wars
The Fourth Forgoer
He's a Pirate
Posts: 5,285
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Post by Makajawan on Aug 5, 2008 15:25:51 GMT -5
Vidguy's right. I look for the same things in a battle as Water Dumple. That doesn't mean the game is flawed- it means I need to find a mod who agrees with me. Unfortunately, there's still the matter of casualties. Regardless of how the battle is written, the hero still needs to be kept under control. You can focus on the hero without making them do insane damage. In the Frostbite RE, Luigi received quite a bit of attention, yet he didn't really do anything mechanically. Mods should still keep the mechanical power equal to a 100-day project, just spend more time writing about it if that's what suits you.
Also, since I have much more time than previously imagined, I can write other battles while doing this finale thing. If you want a battle, I can write it for you.
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Aug 5, 2008 15:36:16 GMT -5
How does Hero power level factor into powers being added on? I'd figure that the power itself is not just being added on, but a factor in how powerful it is.
That does mean it's roughly 500 Days worth of power, not counting abilities and the like, so Wizeman will be deadly. Mindless rambling, pay it no heed.
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Makajawan
SMKW God of the Wars
The Fourth Forgoer
He's a Pirate
Posts: 5,285
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Post by Makajawan on Aug 5, 2008 15:41:29 GMT -5
If you put 500 days into him, then he'll be 500 days. If I put 600 days of machines on him, then he'll be dead.
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Aug 5, 2008 15:49:02 GMT -5
Hmm, what? No, I'm making a group of machines that are specialized and have the ability to switch the collective powers of the group to an individual. What this means is that you'll have... I'd say 1000 days worth of specialization easily. Should be fun to see in action. It's a weird idea I had.
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Water Dumple
SMKW God of the Wars
Expert Debater
Whatever do you mean, Commander Pierce?! Anglo military intelligence is second to none! Fire!
Posts: 4,123
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Post by Water Dumple on Aug 5, 2008 16:15:28 GMT -5
Alright...I've been sick today/a little bit yesterday, and I gotta write a battle, so I really only have the energy to reply to a few of these, and somewhat incompletely as well, so...here goes, I s'pose. WD, first off, let me say this: many of your points make sense and are perfectly rational. That said, I can say that unfortunately, there are several elements and factors that simply cannot be cut from the game. Not because people want them there or because they're SMKW staples, but because it's simply human nature. Each of us are unique and think in our own way. We approach problems differently, have different ideas, react differently to situations, etc. Because of this, we all approach modding battles uniquely as well. Myself, I absolutely love writing Hero on Hero battles; they're simple, there's not alot of digging through info, and most importantly I just have a knack for writing them. Because of that, when I mod a battle, you can bet dollars to donuts that there's going to be a Hero on Hero battle if I can help it. My point is: this issue on how battles are written, how the strength of War Machines and Artifacts is perceived, how powerful Heroes are, and the randomization factor of battles are all dependent on the Mod. Not the system, not the Rules, not the game; the person typing the battle. He can be unbiased towards each side, but he can make whatever he wants to happen as long as it's within reason. Now that you have this in mind, you need to look at all the different battles from the Wars and see who wrote what; which battle did you appreciate the most? Which seemed the most fair? Most ______-centric? Chances are that it's because that particular Mod naturally focuses on what you look for in a battle. Now, the next time you want to fight, send him a PM and ask him to mod it. I learned a while ago that there's a slight out-of-game element to the game; it's not just about writing great plans or choosing the perfect target, because the person who interprets the strategy is just as important as the strategy itself. If what you say is true, then we should be able to add what we want the battle to focus on. For example, when we send in our plans, we could check one focus for something like "Troops," "Machines," "Heroes," "Officers," "Defenses," "General things," and so on. It sounds like it might make it more interesting. ...But it still seems that magic escapes god-mod claims more than tech does, if you catch my meaning. Different issue, yes, but I think it should have its screws tightened until it's equal with machines. === Why do you care? You aren't part of these wars anymore, and you said you were lacking creativity in them, not a rules problem.I care because I've played this game for over a year and have been here since topic 3 on GameFAQs. That means I joined perhaps a month after the game originally started, or even before that. I don't want to see the game ruined. And I still play in The Wars, and may rejoin this version if I see some different things show up, such as heroes being balanced out and tech army strength enhanced/hero (Or magic) armies weakened. The fact I don't play in this version of SMKW anymore does not make what I say invalid. There is a limit on Artifacts. Maybe not mechanically, but have you ever seen more than one of any type of Artifact, minus the Star Rod, which in and of itself is almost the only thing in Mario capable of doing what it does. I haven't, and I deal with Artifacts far more so than you.This doesn't make sense. You ask if I have seen more than any one type of artifact--Good so far--Minus the star rod, which is almost the only thing capable of doing what it does. It's incomplete. You just left that sentence unfinished, unless you really are asking if I've seen more than one type of artifact, in which case the answer is heck yes. Almost every one is different. And if there is no mechanical limit, naturally, you can go do whatever you want with them. There's a vague, too-open limit on their strength, but nothing that says that you can get more than one type of them. You aren't going to get Artifacts like those. No one deals in mechanical terms like those, and no one should. That is infinitely overpowered. Effectively that may happen, but that depends on a number of things. Who is the Artifact being used against, where they are, what is going on, things like that. Most WM's have a use, no matter where they are. I, however, wouldn't use the Thunder Pure Heart while engaging in underwater combat. WM's are also long-lasting. Whatever an Artifact does, it does it once, minus the Star Rod. And you keep ignoring the writers whim, which is what this is all about.I could get artifacts like those if I wanted to; it's only when somebody exposes how overpowered it is that it becomes apparent. Also, machines are generally a one-place thing. They exist in one area. Artifacts seem to be able to have an affect in any place you want them to. They also seem to be impossible to destroy. Which means they need to have longer quests for them, or at least more detailed. Part of the reason why Quests are allowed to skirt days is because they are supposed to be detailed, and involve actual effort on the writers part. You keep looking at things from an almost purely mechanical and tactical way. These wars are more than that, and capable of appealing to more people because of that. And where do you see magic > tech? Artifacts can be tech-based, as all Artifacts are is a one-shot deal that does a lot, so it would be like a big laser beam for tech, to simplify it. I have a group of tech Artifacts planned, and I also have planned a magic WM, so your problem is Artifacts > WM, not magic > tech. And yet more problems with the writer. If you have an issue with how people view things, find a writer that shares your views. soul does, most likely. That is your issue, time and time again. Not the game itself, how people view it, and interpret it. Deal with the people, not the system.Are you telling me to say that the mods suck at writing battles, or to be a little more tame, that they wrote them incorrectly? You tell me to "Deal with the people, not the system". So does that mean that I should sit down and have a talk with the writers about whatever battles I didn't like? What do you mean by that? It shouldn't. You either find a writer that agrees with you, or you bring it up with a more important person, or a group of people, who feel it was unfair. And rarely do solo attacks ever work, not just yours, mainly because the enemy usually has allies as well.... What shouldn't? What shouldn't do what? This is rather incoherent. And if solo attacks rarely work, that's something else I should bring up. As well, I'd like to see a balance. Eliminating Bandits won't fix the imbalance you receive. Some people have different ideas of fun, and instead of eliminating, you change.Trashing bandits most certainly will help. It gets rid of a class based on heroes, which as I've already explained are too vague and unpredictable and problematic. If they can do one thing and then something entirely different in two battles just because of how the moderator sees them, then it should be changed somehow. Heroes are overpowered, see my previous argument for why, and just saying that it's a subjective issue like vidguy did doesn't solve the problem, it just shows that a change should be there even more, because in a game with specific troop numbers and such like this, something so vague shouldn't be there. Also, if you have enough time to post all this, and continue arguing, you have enough time for SMKW.50 kb of extras, frequent updates taking ten minutes to an hour for every one I make, and additional time thinking up projects takes as much time as this? Oh, yes. I definitely see the connection.
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Aug 6, 2008 0:08:58 GMT -5
Paragraph response
1. I like that. It gives some say in what happens. I vote we try that.
2. I think magic is equal with tech. It all depends on, again, how people interpret it. Don't forget Clarke's Law. And before anyone asks, look it up, and it will explain my belief in magic and tech, as well as other power sources, which is why I did what I did with my Shaman.
3. The game isn't ruined. It may not be what you like, but that's different. The entire dislike you have of this is all based on, again, how people write. And heroes should be strong. Bandit groups have only 75% strength of Armies, and even then, not a lot of people use them. With almost equal strength and good tactics, it should be possible to win.
4. What I'm asking is if you ever saw multiples of an Artifact, as in, say, multiple Diamond Stars, aside from the situation with the Star Rod. There is no more mechanical limit with Artifacts than there is with Artifacts, or Heroes, or Troops. It all depends on what you want to see, and how you view it.
5. Artifacts aren't overpowered. The problem you have is that you think that because they are the same length of days, they should be equal in all regards. If we do that, it quickly becomes stale, and little reason to even have anything other than one type of classification, as all of them are the same in everyone's eye that way.
6. I'm saying that the writers don't fit how you feel a battle should go, so you should find writers that do. A battle can go any way depending on who is writing, and even the same battle is completely different under the eyes of a different writer.
7. Solo attacks don't work most of the time. Again, Geno is the only time I've ever seen an Army fight an Army one-on-one, and that has more to do with the X-Naut allies being apathetic about the situation. How do you propose to stop allies from helping each other, as that is the only way you can have true solo battles.
8. How will it help with fun? And WM's can be just as diverse, as can Troops. And something so vague helps to make things from being pure mechanics. Like I said, you want mechanics only, and that would ruin, for one thing, the Mario feel. Even Warcraft has Heroes, and it's one of the most famed RTS games in existence.
9. It doesn't really need that much time. If you care enough to argue, you should be able to find time to deal with your SMKW army. Most of the changes in SMKW don't carry over to The Wars, so it's not really that pressing a matter for you.
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