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Post by vidguysteve on Jun 22, 2008 17:40:50 GMT -5
And thinking about this... If we HAVE dropped the CO-Move ratio, then this system isn't any different than the current system.
This topic is just asking people to make shorter plans so we get quicker updates.
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Post by rydon7 on Jun 22, 2008 17:46:27 GMT -5
And thinking about this... If we HAVE dropped the CO-Move ratio, then this system isn't any different than the current system. This topic is just asking people to make shorter plans so we get quicker updates. ^ Correct I agree.
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Water Dumple
SMKW God of the Wars
Expert Debater
Whatever do you mean, Commander Pierce?! Anglo military intelligence is second to none! Fire!
Posts: 4,123
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Post by Water Dumple on Jun 22, 2008 18:21:49 GMT -5
Then let's try to make shorter plans to get shorter and quicker updates. It helps, and we can do these things in real time if all the people involved in the battle are online. We could chug out an update, as Maka said, in twenty minutes.
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Makajawan
SMKW God of the Wars
The Fourth Forgoer
He's a Pirate
Posts: 5,285
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Post by Makajawan on Jun 22, 2008 20:41:44 GMT -5
It's actually different, vidguy, here's why:
You can only do stuff with a move, not plan for the future. You move troops into position to attack, you don't outline your strategy for the entire battle. Updates would consist of the troops meeting, exchanging blows, and then casualties would be displayed. Factions would then react to any situations that came up during the fighting. Perhaps an example:
Faction A:
500 Goombas 500 Koopas 500 Hammer Bros
1 Bullet Bill Tank
Move: Position Koopas in the front lines, using their shells as a blockade. Position the Hammer Bros behind them and have them use their hammers to attack the enemy, primarily Piranha Plants. Have the Goombas maneuver escort the Bullet Bill Tank around the right flank to strike from behind.
Faction B:
500 Piranha Plants 500 Magikoopas 500 Boos
Move: Have Magikoopas fight off the enemy from a distance, serving as a guard against enemy troops. Have the Boos sneak behind enemy lines and attack while the Piranha Plants come up from underneath.
Update:
Faction A had its Koopas lined up across the front lines. It was a chilly morning, and the Koopas were all huddled together. Behind them were the Hammer Bros, waiting steadfastly for the enemy to appear.
Triangles, Squares, and Circles emerged from across a small crest, laying waste to Koopas. The group instantly assembled themselves, forming a line to protect the Hammer Bros from behind. The Bros started lobbing hammers over to the attacking Magikoopas of Faction B. The spells decreased in number, but the Magikoopas fought on. Koopas were falling left and right, and even a few Hammer Bros were taken down.
Just then, a large group of Goombas emerged. They charged down on the Magikoopa position, headbonking as many as possible. Behind them was a Bullet Bill Tank, shooting down Magikoopas at a frightening rate, coupled with the might of the Hammer Bros, it seemed all was lost.
Suddenly, a Piranha plant emerged from the ground, and snapped up a Hammer Bro. Hundreds more emerged, laying waste to Faction A's position. Boos also appeared, taking out the Koopas which had shielded the Hammer Bros. The battle had truly begun.
Casualties:
Faction A: 200 Koopas 100 Hammer Bros 50 Goombas
Faction B: 300 Magikoopas 50 Piranha Plants 50 Boos
Turn Two
Faction A:
450 Goombas 300 Koopas 400 Hammer Bros
1 Bullet Bill Tank
Move: Have the Bullet Bill Tank and 100 Goombas stay and finish off the Magikoopas. Have the remaining 350 Goombas run back to the Hammer Bros and Koopas and have them help fight off the Piranha Plants and Boos. Have the Koopas fight off as many enemies as possible, and have the Hammer Bros lob hammers randomly.
Faction B:
450 Piranha Plants 200 Magikoopas 450 Boos
Move: Have the Boos run over and attack the Bullet Bill Tank, while the Magikoopas defend against the Goombas. Have the Piranha Plants go on the defensive, keeping the Hammer Bros and Koopas at bay while trying to save as many casualties as possible.
Update:
After a rallying cry, the Koopas instantly started to shell toss their way into any Boos and Piranha Plants they could find. Hammer Bros started lobbing hammers randomly, a small percentage hitting their mark, but a large number nevertheless. The Piranha Plants were becoming quite pesky, seeming to focus more on dodging than on killing enemy troops. However, the battle still seemed easier- Boos were leaving.
The Bullet Bill Tank was shelling the Magikoopas into submission, and with the large amount of Goombas, it seemed impossible for the Magikoopas to win. Goombas fled the scene to go aid with the Piranha Plant issue, but even so, the Magikoopas were having a tough time. It seemed they'd never win.
Just then, a Boo appeared next to the Bullet Bill Tank, and began attacking it. Hundreds of Boos gathered around the tank, attacking it repeatedly.
The Magikoopas turned their attention to the Goombas, noticing their superior numbers. Goombas were ripped apart by the Magikoopas' might. Tides were turning. Suddenly, the tank exploded in a brilliant flash. Tides had turned.
The Goombas arrived on the scene to find that the battle was well under control. They helped finish off the remaining Piranha plants, fighting heartily. The group turned around to see that victory was not so easily achieved. Their tank was gone, and the remaining Goombas were next.
Total Casualties:
Faction A: 200 Goombas 150 Hammer Bros 250 Koopas
1 Bullet Bill Tank
Faction B: 500 Piranha Plants 400 Magikoopas 100 Boos
Turn Three
Faction A: 300 Goombas 350 Hammer Bros 250 Koopas
Move: Have all troops run and finish off the remaining troops of the enemy. Have Koopas defend up front, have Goombas follow up behind, and have Hammer Bros lob Hammers from the rear.
Faction B: 100 Magikoopas 400 Boos
Move: Have the Magikoopas hurl spells at the enemy, keeping them at bay for as long as possible. Have the Boos sneak up on Hammer Bros and attack.
Update: Faction A quickly formed ranks and charged at the enemy troops, Koopas first. The Magikoopas fired spells quickly, picking off more than a few Koopas, but Hammer Bros showed the enemy who was in charge. The enemy advanced closer and closer.
BAM! Hundreds of Boos appeared within the Hammer Bro ranks. Chaos ensued; Hammer Bros desperately tried to fend off the undead while Boos picked off as many as they could. Within minutes, all the Hammer Bros were dead.
Total Casualties: Faction A: 200 Goombas 300 Koopas 500 Hammer Bros
Faction B: 500 Piranha Plants 450 Magikoopas 400 Boos
Turn Four: Faction A: 300 Goombas 200 Koopas
Move: Have the Goombas finish off the Boos while the Koopas finish off the Magikoopas.
Faction B: 50 Magikoopas 100 Boos
Move: Have the Boos phase out and defend the Magikoopas from the advancing attack. The Magikoopas will fire spells from behind.
Update: The Goombas wheeled around and started headbonking at the Boos, but only a few managed to land hits before the Boos had all phased out. The Goombas shrugged (without shoulders lol) and ran to catch up with their Koopa comrades, already far ahead.
The Magikoopas fired spells at the advancing Koopas, continuing to thin their ranks. Still, the Koopas continued to advance.
Boos appeared to block the Koopas path, fighting their hardest to put a stop to the advance. The Koopas fought hard, but the Magikoopa spell launching caused them great difficulty. Finally, the Goombas arrived on the scene to fight off the Boos. Soon, the last boo was picked off.
Total Casualties: Faction A: 250 Goombas 450 Koopas 500 Hammer Bros
1 Bullet Bill Tank
Faction B: 500 Piranha Plants 450 Magikoopas 500 Boos
Turn Five
Faction A:
250 Goombas 50 Koopas
Move: It is time to eradicate them! Have the Koopas block the Goombas as they advance on the Magikoopas, and then have both groups finish them off with everything they've got.
Faction B:
50 Magikoopas
Move: This will be our last stand! Have all the Magikoopas fire spells at the Koopas and finish them off. Then, crush the advancing Goombas under a spell barrage.
Update:
The Koopas charged at the Magikoopas, the Goombas close behind. Spell after spell the Magikoopas launched, fighting ever harder. Koopas fell left and right, but the warriors of Faction A were not deterred. Even after the last Koopa fell, Goombas continued their charge, never yielding.
The Magikoopas lobbed more and more spells at the advancing Goombas. Unfortunately, it was to late. The Goombas arrived, and headbonked all of the Magikoopas to their graves. The battle was won.
Total Casualties:
Faction A: 400 Goombas 500 Koopas 500 Hammer Bros
1 Bullet Bill Tank
Faction B: 500 Piranha Plants 500 Magikoopas 500 Boos
BATTLE COMPLETE:
WINNER: FACTION A
So, you see? This new system has plans only account for the now- no actual plans for the future, short updates that only cover what is in the plans, and casualties posted after each update so another move can be made. This provides more adaptability, an increase in control of plans, and hopefully quicker battles.
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Post by vidguysteve on Jun 22, 2008 21:38:34 GMT -5
Well, there's still a few problems.
With no back-up plan, you just have two oppossing forces charging into a battle, hoping that everything will go swimmingly for them. When things to go crap, they had better hope that the enemies just let them go, since they have no way to cover their asses or prepare for when things turn bad.
Another problem is that Mods may have too little to work with. Some people -myself included- often face difficulty producing quality updates, even with long plans. And before you say "Well, on the flip side, they have to write less," look to my third problem.
My last problem is that battles are not only intended to be exciting and interesting, but most often they're the sources of conflict, character development, and motivation for Officers and Armies. With such short updates, the battles seem... kinda... superficial, I suppose. There's no depth, just "troops do this, troops do that, troops did this, troops did that." Booooooriiiing! "Troops do this, enemy troops did that, Officer 1 screamed in frustration and ordered a counter attack, Officer 2 smirked at his enemy's recklessness and commanded troops to surround Officer 1." See? We got development! With your method, it would be like watching a War movie, except instead of watching the whole thing, you pause the movie every three minutes for half an hour at a time and fast-forward through dialogue. The action feels broken, and without a good story to mull over, thinking 'Oh, what's going to happen next?! I can't wait until the next update!', there's no suspense. It's... boring.
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Makajawan
SMKW God of the Wars
The Fourth Forgoer
He's a Pirate
Posts: 5,285
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Post by Makajawan on Jun 22, 2008 21:49:33 GMT -5
1. The Short Updates counter this- you'll have time to adjust before lack of back-up plans really damages you.
2. Too little to work with? Have you written a battle under this system? When we're dealing with full armies instead of these little factions here- more than enough material.
3. There were no officers at the example battle. Had I positioned them there, there would have been character development.
EDIT: Also, remember that this isn't just a story- it's also a game. Right now, I fear it has become more of a story than a game, as far as battles are concerned. I ashamed to admit it, but most of the battles I've written have constituted me trying to create the most epic explosion as a finale I could muster. It may be fun to read- no one has ever complained about the quality of my battles as far as being an epic story- but it isn't really fair, and I've gotten plenty of complaints in that department. Is it me or the system that's to blame? I'd definitely say I deserve most of it, but you can't deny that the system does lend itself to it.
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Water Dumple
SMKW God of the Wars
Expert Debater
Whatever do you mean, Commander Pierce?! Anglo military intelligence is second to none! Fire!
Posts: 4,123
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Post by Water Dumple on Jun 22, 2008 21:54:41 GMT -5
I think we should try it once on the next SMKW battle coming up. I understand what vidguy says--He makes good points--But so does Maka. I'm interested to see how the system works in-play.
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Post by vidguysteve on Jun 22, 2008 21:59:24 GMT -5
I'm just pointing out faults I see with it, but I'm not so stubborn as to say that we should never try it.
I agree with Dumple when he says we should try it out on the next battle in SMKW -with consent from those involved, of course. We'll see how it goes, and if it moves smoothly, then we can add it to the ways a battle can transpire. I think it goes without saying that this system shouldn't replace the original method of Battle writing- just join it.
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Merloo
SMKW God of the Wars
Posts: 5,486
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Post by Merloo on Jun 22, 2008 23:25:20 GMT -5
I side with vidguy more on this, simply because I prefer the longer plans. It makes little sense that a group wouldn't plan even slightly ahead into the future, and backup plans are always good. Plans for when such and such a thing happen, things like that. I prefer plans and battles based around those kind of plans.
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Post by Yoshimaster on Jun 23, 2008 7:33:38 GMT -5
If it was optional I'd go with it. If not than I side with the old one.
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Post by tinfoilman on Jun 23, 2008 8:58:44 GMT -5
Wow, maka got an update up within 1:20 of WD's post! Its a new record! Maybe he can transform speedy mini-updates into speedy Finale-updates!
J/k, but I'm willing to let it be tested out, as I still don't have 100% faith in it. 1) because who will actually send just 1500 troops, so how would it work on a grander scale? and 2) it might reduce the awesome-randomness of battles. It might become a halfway-point between modded battles and computerized-battles.
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Makajawan
SMKW God of the Wars
The Fourth Forgoer
He's a Pirate
Posts: 5,285
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Post by Makajawan on Jun 23, 2008 10:47:35 GMT -5
I feel that on a grander scale, it will still allow for the awesome-randomness of battles.
I think what we need is to see it in action.
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Post by rydon7 on Jun 23, 2008 12:22:57 GMT -5
Well, I'll probably be in the next battle. I'm in one as soon as the Frostbite thing is over.
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